we all r eternal souls oky
we all parts nd parcels of supreme lord sri krsna ry8
we all came frm spiritual world to material world as a punishment becoz we wished to enjoy independently frm sri krsna nd sri krsna gave free will to enjoy us as we want so we r here in this material world nd sufferiing all pains
some grt devotees frm spiritual world came here to preach us abt real identity of us
so my ques is simply that why a desire of enjoying separetly frm lord krsna come in our mind even in spiritual world while spiritual world is free frm all illusory energy nd there is only bhakti nd bhkti then still how can maya attacks there upon us nd we get desire of enjoying seperatly. why does it happens
in this way if we r trying to go back to godhead then still there is chances to fell down in material world.
pls solve this query how the seed of independent enjoying came in spiritual world
Replies
Hare Krsna
Why a desire of enjoying separetly frm lord krsna come in our mind even in spiritual world while spiritual world is free frm all illusory energy nd there is only bhakti
There is no specific reason why such a desire arises. By default a living entity is allowed to enjoy by serving the lord or try to enjoy independent of the lord. There can only be speculations on why such a desire arises - curiosity, envy, wanting to imitate lord etc. As far as I know shastras do not give a concrete specific cause for the rising of desire. And it is also possible that every living entity has different causes. But it is not due to the illusory potency of the lord.
As long as there is no such desire the material energy cannot touch the pure living entity. It is only after such a desire arises that illusory potency takes control of living entity. In this world our experience is that our desires are transferred from outside of us into us and we get attached to it. But constitutionally living entity can have his own desire any desire within his own self. So there is provision given to living entity to have his own independent desire.
We can think of it like everyone has a switch. Switch has 2 option - On and Off. If we switch On then current flows and gives us shock. How a person operates the switch is completely upto the person. Presently our switch is On, so we r getting shocks of maya, all we need to do is turn the switch Off, then current flow stops and shocks will disappear. Maya or illusory energy cannot turn the switch On or Off, it has to be done by us. Current only flows after the switch is On. SO it is we who did the mistake of turning the switch On. Ultimately why did we turn On thw switch can only be known fully when we go back to spiritual world. But it is not important. what is important is we have to go back.
if we r trying to go back to godhead then still there is chances to fell down in material world.
Once we go back to godhead from material world then there is no comeback. Krsna says in BG
na tad bhāsayate sūryo
na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ
yad gatvā na nivartante
tad dhāma paramaṁ mama
That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.(BG 15.6)
This is the supreme assurance given by the supreme personality of Absolute truth. He never lies, if he does, lies become truth. So he assures the living entity that once we go to spiritual world, it is a one-way ticket there is no coming back. So this is a one-time endeavour that has to be put for an eternity of blissful life. By mercy of Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, it is possible to achieve this perfection in just one life time. Spiritual bliss in spiritual world is far greater in quality and quantity than we can ever imagine in this material world, and that too for eternity. it is a very Bumper bonanza offer. Grab it while u can.
YS Bharat
a few years ago some devotee posted the below mentioned texts in this forum which is quite interesting i think -
May 13, 1973 in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada says:
Paramahamsa: "So we can come down to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: Yes…He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that."
Srila Prabhupada morning walk in Mayapur, 2-19-76:
Prabhupada: No it is not difficult. It is not difficult.
Acyutananda: It is not difficult. They don't want to understand.
Prabhupada: Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence proportionately, because you are part and parcel.
Acyutananda: But in the Gita it says "once going there, he never returns."
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return.
In continuation, Srila Prabhupada explains in a room conversation in Mayapur on February 19, 1976:
Disciple: ...So, if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krsna in such conditions?
Prabhupada: That is independence…you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel.
Disciple: But in the Gita it says "once coming there, he never returns."
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
In a conversation after lecture on Caitanya-caritamrita in San Francisco on February, 18, 1967, Prabhupada says:
Disciple: When the souls that were never conditioned at all…do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused.
Disciple: Could they ever misuse it?
Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it, also. That power is there.
Disciple: Well, I believe once you said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and goes back to Krishnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: No there is a possibility.
In Bhagavad-gita 6.47, Srila Prabhupada states in the purport:
"Every living entity is of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and thus every living entity is intended to serve the Supreme Lord by his own constitution. Failing to do this, he falls down..The Bhagavatam 11.5.3 confirms this as follows:
Ya esaam purusam saaksaad aatma prabhavam ishvaram
Nabhajaty avajaananti stbaanaad bhrastaah patanty adhah
Anyone who does not render service and neglects his duty unto the primeval Lord who is the source of all living entities will certainly fall down from his constitutional position."
At the end of the lecture a question was asked: "Why are you teaching about Krsna Consciousness? Prabhupada answered: "Because you have forgotten the service of Radha and Krsna, therefore you have become the servant of Maya."
In Bhagavatam 6.11.24, it states:
Aham hare tava padaika-mula-dasanudaso bhavitasmi bhuyah
"O my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter only at Your lotus feet?"
This verse indicates that the word "again" (bhuyah) in the above verse refers to the original state of the jiva. This is a reoccurring word throughout the Bhagavatam. So it has importance.
In a July, 1976 lecture Srila Prabhupada emphasized:
"Mukti means as it is defined in Srimad Bhagavatam, Muktir hitvanyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih. That is mukti. Sva-rupena, legally, constitutionally, I am a servant of God, or Krsna. Now I have become a servant of dog and maya. So if I give up this service and again become servant of God, that is mukti."
In 11.14.25 Bhagavatam, it asserts:
yathagnina hema malam jahati
dhmatam punah svam bhogate ca rupam
atma ca karmanusayam vidhuya
mad-bhakti-yogena bhajaty atho mam
"Just as gold, when smelted in fire, gives up its impurities and returns to its pure brilliant state, similarly, the spirit soul, absorbed in the fire of bhakti yoga, is purified of all contamination caused by previous fruitive activities and returns to its original position of serving Me in the spiritual world."
Note: the Sanskrit, punah svam bhajate ca rupam atma - which means again enters its own spirit soul form. Punah-again; svam-its own; bhajate-enters; ca-also; rupam-form; atma-the spirit soul or consciousness. This shows that the soul expanded here returns or enters its own form there in Vaikunthaloka. The Satchitananda vigraha, which already existed prior to coming to this world.
Responding to our desire, Krsna gives us a chance to forget Him.
A lecture given in Tokyo, on April 20, 1972
sri-suka uvaca
atma-mayam rte rajan
parasyanubhavatmanah
na ghatetartha-sambandhah
svapna-drastur ivanjasa
Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O king, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. That relationship is just like a dreamer's seeing his own body working. - (Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.1)
MANY PEOPLE INQUIRE, "How did the living entity, who was with Krsna, fall into the material world?" That question is answered here. The living entity's condition is simply the influence of the material energy; actually he has not fallen. An example is given: The moon appears to be moving when clouds pass in front of it. Actually, the moon is not moving. Similarly, the living entity, because he is a spiritual spark of the Supreme, has not fallen. But he is thinking, "I am fallen. I am material. I am this body."
The body has no connection with the soul. We can experience this. The body is changing, dying, but I am the same. The idea that we have a connection with the body is due to the handling of the illusory energy of Krsna. That illusory energy develops when we forget Krsna.
In other words, our illusory identification with the body is simply due to our forgetfulness. We wanted to forget; we wanted to give up Krsna and enjoy the material world. Therefore Krsna is giving us the chance. For example, when you play a part in a drama, if you feel, "I am king," then you can talk very nicely. And if you feel, "I am Karandhara*," then you cannot play a king so nicely. The feelings must be there. If you are playing the part of a king, you must believe you are the king and have his courage. You have to forget that you are Karandhara. Then you can play the part very nicely, and the audience will appreciate. But if you think simultaneously, "I am Karandhara, and I am playing the part of the king," then you cannot play.
A disciple in the audience.
So because we wanted to play the part of Krsna, the enjoyer, Krsna is giving us the chance "You feel like Me." The feeling that "I am master, I am king, I am Krsna, I am God" is created by Krsna: "All right. You want to play the part of a king. I shall train you in such a way."
The director of a play tries to create the feelings within you for the part you are playing. In my younger age I played in a drama about Lord Caitanya. Our director, Amritlal Bose, repeatedly said, especially to me, "Feel like that." So when we performed under his direction, all the people in the audience were crying. The play was artificial, but the effect on the audience was so nice.
Similarly, we have nothing to do with the material world, but we have been trained by the illusory energy in such a way that we think, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am a brahmana," "I am a sudra," "I am this," "I am that," "I have to do this," "I have so many duties." These are all illusions. We have nothing to do with all this nonsense, but still we are taking it very seriously: "I have to do like that. I am this. I am that."
That is explained here. Atmamayam rte rajan parasyanubhavat-manah: "Unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body."
The example is given of a man dreaming. "Oh, there is a tiger, a tiger! Save me!" He is crying. An awake man observing may say, "Where is the tiger? Why are you crying?" But the dreaming man is actually feeling, "The tiger has attacked me."
Therefore this example is given: na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of the relationship of the soul and the body except that it is like a dreaming man creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger, and he is creating a fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. The situation is created by a dream.
Similarly, we have created the material world and material activity. People are running around "Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We know his politics. We have to defeat our competitors." All these things are created just as a man creates a situation in a dream svapna-drastur ivanjasa.
So when someone asks, "When did we come into contact with the material nature?" the answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the external energy we think we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krsna, Krsna has given an opportunity: "All right. You want to imitate. You want to be an imitation king on the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud 'Oh, a very nice king.' "
Everyone in the material world is playing some part. "I want to be prime minister." "I want to become a very big business magnate." "I want to be a leader." "I want to be a philosopher." "I want to be a scientist." They are trying to play all these nonsense parts, and Krsna is giving the opportunity "All right."
But these things are all nonsense. Simply dreaming. When you dream, the next moment the dream is gone, and everything in the dream is finished. No more tiger, no more jungle. Similarly, as long as the body continues, I think, "I am a responsible leader. I am this. I am that." But as soon as the body is finished, these ideas are gone.
Krsna says, mrtyu sarva-haras caham: "I am death. I take everything away." Just think of our past life. Suppose I was a king or something like that. From Bhrgu-samhita it was ascertained that I was a big physician in my last life, with a spotless character, no sins. I don't know. It may be. But I have no remembrance that I was a physician. So what do we know? I might have been a very big influential physician, with a good practice, but where is it all now? All gone.
So our contact with matter is just like a dream. We are not fallen. Therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness. We become liberated as soon as we understand, "I have nothing to do with matter. I am simply Krsna's eternal servant." Sometimes when a fearful dream becomes intolerable, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break the material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna consciousness. "Oh, Krsna is my eternal master. I am His servant." That's all. That is the way.
Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment.
So if you study all these verses very nicely, you will get all this knowledge quickly. Now what is the purport?
[A disciple reads:] "Maharaja Pariksit's question as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and mind, is perfectly answered. The spirit soul is distinct from the material conception of his life, but he is absorbed in such a material conception because of being influenced by the external energy of the Lord, called atma-maya. This has been already explained in the First Canto in connection with Vyasadeva's realization of the Supreme Lord and His external energy. The external energy is controlled by the Lord and the living entities are controlled by the external energy."
Prabhupada: Krsna says, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "As soon as one surrenders unto Me, he has no more illusion." People are conditioned, encaged. Mayavadis, or impersonalists, undergo austerities and penances just to become liberated. Yogis also try to become "one." So many endeavors are going on. But the simple process is that as soon as you surrender you are not fallen. "It was illusion. I was dreaming. I am Krsna's." By thinking in this way, one immediately becomes liberated. Immediately. Within a second.
Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking we are fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated.
Is there any difficulty in understanding this point? Just see how important this verse is. It is already there, but you are not reading. Read each verse; read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit every day a hundred yards forward. They are such important verses. How nicely composed by Vyasadeva! In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called sastra.
Read the purport.
[The disciple reads:] "The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord in being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gita (15.15) also the same thing is confirmed; the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity, and all the living entity's consciousness and forgetfulness are influenced by the Lord."
Prabhupada: Now, people may ask, "Why does Krsna within the heart give one type of consciousness to one and a different type of consciousness to another?" That is His kindness. I wanted to forget Krsna, so Krsna is giving the appropriate consciousness: "All right, you can forget Me in this way."
The karmis, or ordinary materialists, the Mayavadis, and the so-called yogis wanted to forget Krsna. So Krsna is giving them intelligence: "All right. You forget Me like this." And if you want to revive your relationship with Krsna, He will give you intelligence. Dadami buddhi-yogam tam yena mam upayanti te: "I shall give you intelligence to come to Me." Ye yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility.
Go on reading.
[Disciple reads:] "Now the next question automatically made will be why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be in his pure consciousness as the part and parcel of the Lord and thus be engaged in the loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made; but because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become as independent as the Lord is. All the nondevotee living entities are desirous of becoming equally as powerful as the Lord, although they are not fit to become so."
Prabhupada: The living entity will never be God, but we see that by the influence of the illusory energy many people think, "I am God," or "I shall become God by pressing my nose like this." This is going on. But they will never be able to become God. That is not possible. If everyone can become God, then there is no meaning of God.
Karmis say, "I shall become a millionaire. I shall become a trillionaire. I shall become head of state. I shall become prime minister." They struggle to attain these things.
And for yogis to think, "I shall become God" is simply another struggle. It is illusion. Krsna may give them some yogic success. In India there is a rascal who makes gold appear. And people are after him "Oh, he is God, he is God." By producing a little gold, he becomes God.
Another yogi makes two rasagullas [sweets] appear. So by producing two rasagullas, four cents' worth, he becomes God. You see? This is illusion. I can purchase two rasagullas from the market for four cents, so he has become God for four cents. People think, "Oh, he is God. He can produce rasagullas." They have no sense. I can produce rasagullas in our kitchen. But rascals think, "Oh, this yogi is wonderful."
So Krsna gives a person some power of yogic siddhi, or perfection, and the person thinks, "I have become God." And some flatterers think, "Oh, you are God." Such yogis are in the same dream as the karmis. And as soon as death comes, everything is finished your Godhood and everything, finished. Now comes doghood. And another dream: "I am dog." First of all "I am God," then "I am dog." This is going on.
Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakura has said, (miche) mayar bose, jaccho bhese': "Why are you being washed away by the waves of maya? Just stand up." (Jiv) krsna-das, ei biswas, korle to ar duhkho nai. "Simply stay fixed on this point: 'I am an eternal servant of Krsna.' Then there is no more dream." And if you allow yourself to be washed away, Krsna gives you facility: "All right, come on. Be washed away."
Then?
[Disciple reads:] "The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him. Like a person who thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forget his actual life and thus dream of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the reflection of the moon. Similarly the crying child of the Lord is given over to the reflection, the material world, to lord it over as a karmi and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this. But the fact is that as soon as he desired it, he was put under the control of atma-maya by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is 'mine' and this is 'I.' The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as 'I' or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with that material body is 'mine.' Thus only in dream does the misconception of 'I and mine' persist life after life. This continues life after life, as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord.
"In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love."
Prabhupada: Thank you very much.
Hare Krsna Mataji,
PAMHO.
There are 2 schools of thought in this - one says we came from the spiritual world, another says we were in the material world only. What our seniors have told us is - its not important from where we came, what is important how to get out of here. A drowning man doesnt argue about who pushed him into the water, he is more interested in how to get out.
To answer your question from the other school of thought, the seed of independent enjoying came to the mind of the soul the same way breaking the law comes into the mind of any citizen. Nobody plans to go to jail, they land up in jail for their acts. Similarly, nobody plans to come to the material world. Their desire to enjoy independent of the lord brings them to the material world.
Once a soul has been to the material world and then gets purified and returns to the spiritual world, then there is no second coming back to the material world. That also acharyas mention. Its not a case of repeat offender. Going to the spiritual world from the material world is a one time exercise.
Haribol,
Your servant,
Radha Rasamayi DD
In bhakti yoga one can fell down only because of offences, there is no other way of falling down from that path. Even sinful Ajamila, who was not offender of Lord and His devotees, was progressing, because of his unintentional, non regular and spontaneous devotional service of calling Lords name.
But looking at the long distance, after some lives, still offenders who made the offences on the path of bhakti can get opportunity for progress, because Lord and His true devotees are the most merciful. Nalakūvara and Maṇigrīva, who was offenders, are clear example of such mercy.